Jul 2, 2019
Each year, more than 500,000 people visit an emergency room because of a kidney stone, which can cause severe kidney pain and blood in the urine. Dr. Daniel Marchalik discusses outpatient tubeless mini PCNL, a minimally invasive procedure for large kidney stones.
Intro: MedStar Washington Hospital Center presents Medical Intel where our healthcare team shares health and wellness insights and gives you the inside story on advances in medicine.
Host: We’re speaking with Dr. Daniel Marchalik, the Director of Ambulatory Urologic Surgery at MedStar Washington Hospital Center. Thank you for joining us today, Dr. Marchalik.
Dr. Marchalik: Thanks so much. Happy to be here.
Host: Today we’re discussing percutaneous nephrolithotomy, or PCNL, a technique used to remove kidney stones. Dr. Marchalik, could you begin by discussing who would be a candidate for mini PCNLs?
Dr. Marchalik: Yeah, so PCNLs are...actually, it’s a very interesting procedure because traditionally we’ve always thought of PCNLs as being a very invasive and a very difficult procedure. But increasingly, what we’re finding is that PCNLs, or the indications for PCNLs, have been expanded. So, anyone who has a large kidney stone - and by that I mean a stone that’s bigger than 1-½ centimeters - is automatically a better candidate for a PCNL than other types of surgery, barring other considerations, of course. But for mini PCNLs specifically, what we’re finding is that patients that have intermediate-sized stones - so maybe a lower pole stone that’s a little bit bigger than a centimeter or other stones that are bigger than a centimeter and a half but maybe less than a full staghorn calculus, which is a stone that occupies the whole kidney - those are the perfect patients.
Host: What are some common symptoms people have before they’re diagnosed with kidney stones?
Dr. Marchalik: A lot of times people will present with pain in their kidney or in their back. They might feel like they are actually passing a kidney stone, in which case they will have spasms. In fact, people have actually compared kidney stone pain to childbirth. And, they did a study on this and it turns out that passing a kidney stone is as painful as giving birth. It’s one of the few times that guys can actually feel what women go through. Also, sometimes you can present with an infection in the urine or blood in the urine. And, all of those could potentially be caused by kidney stones.
Host: How does a mini PCNL operation work and what are its greatest benefits?
Dr. Marchalik: So, percutaneous nephrolithotomy - if you actually break the word down, it means that we are going percutaneously through the skin into the kidney. And nephrolithotomy means that we’re taking the stone out of the kidney. So, we put a small opening into the kidney, through the back, and through that opening we’ll put in a scope and a probe that can break the stone up into smaller pieces and actually suction those pieces out. The greatest benefit of the mini PCNL versus a regular PCNL is that with this procedure we still get all the benefits of a PCNL. So, we still can get patients out of the hospital with less stones or no stones at all. We can decrease the number of surgeries that they need to become stone free. But, it’s got some new benefits - meaning, we do it through a small opening so there’s less pain afterwards. We don’t have to leave a tube behind in the back a lot of times. And, a lot of times we can actually send patients out the same day. So, traditionally people would have to stay in the hospital for several days to get this procedure. But now we can actually get patients in and out and still be able to clear way more stone than we would be by other techniques.
Host: What can patients expect during recovery?
Dr. Marchalik: There are certain things that necessarily will happen whenever you have surgery - so, grogginess after anesthesia. Some people can get nauseous after the anesthesia and that happens with any type of anesthesia that you get for any procedure. With this particular procedure, sometimes patients can have pain in their back where the opening was. And they can see blood in their urine for several days. And, they can feel some discomfort in their stomach or in their back afterwards, and a lot of times that’s actually from a small tube that we call a stent that’s left behind to allow the area to heal.
Host: How is the way you perform mini PCNLs compared to traditional PCNLs or similar treatments from years ago?
Dr. Marchalik: The main difference here, the thing that really separates mini tubeless PCNL from a regular PCNL, is that we’re doing it through a smaller opening. Before, we would have to put a larger opening to accommodate our large instruments but as we began to miniaturize these instruments, we’ve been able to do this through a much smaller incision. And, as you can imagine, a smaller incision leads to a better recovery, less pain, less discomfort. The biggest difference is - and the biggest barrier to doing PCNLs traditionally - has been the length of stay, meaning you want the benefits of the PCNL to get as much of the stone out as possible, to do it quickly, but you don’t want the longer hospital stay, possibly coming in the day before, possibly staying a day after the procedure. With this procedure, we’re now able to send patients home the same day as the procedure itself. So, we get the benefits of the PCNL but not some of the barriers that we’ve seen in the past.
Host: Why is MedStar Washington Hospital Center the best place to receive mini PCNL and similar operations?
Dr. Marchalik: I think a lot of it comes down to us having a high volume of this procedure. It’s a procedure we do a lot of and we feel very comfortable doing. We also have a really fantastic interdisciplinary team. So, sometimes we’ll review these images with our interventional radiology partners, if it’s a more complex case. But more importantly, we also think about this holistically. It’s not just a surgery. At the end of the day, we also follow these patients for years after. We make dietary modifications and any type of other changes that we need to make to make sure that we don’t just treat the stone. We treat the patient. And we prevent these stones from coming back in the future.
Host: Could you share a story where a patient received optimal care at MedStar Washington Hospital Center through a mini PCNL?
Dr. Marchalik: Well, actually I had a really great case recently. This was a patient who had a large stone. It was blocking his kidney, causing a ton of pain in his back, some nausea and other discomfort. And he was really concerned because he thought that he would require multiple surgeries to get rid of the stone. We were able to do a PCNL - a mini tubeless PCNL - on him. He came in for an 8:30 case. He was home by 1 o’clock. No pain. No discomfort. No tubes left behind. I ended up seeing him in my clinic the week after and he reported that he actually had a great postoperative course. He didn’t have any discomfort or pain. No issues with his back. And all the pain that he had before the surgery was now gone. Now, we still have a long road ahead of us. We still have to figure out why it is that he was making stones in the first place, but at least this part is now over.
Host: Are there any risks associated with mini PCNLs?
Dr. Marchalik: As with any surgery, you have inherent risks associated with the anesthesia itself. And it doesn’t matter what type of surgery it is, anesthesia always poses a risk. But, there are some inherent risks to this procedure itself. Because we’re going through the back, there’s always risk of damage to the organs that are around the kidney. Now, that risk is small. The only time that this could be a little bit more concerning is with stones that are very high up in the kidney, but we take measures to mitigate that risk, as well. The real risk is that we don’t get all the stone out. And sometimes when you have a very large stone, even despite using this technique, not all the stone gets cleared. That being said, this is the procedure that gives you the highest chance of being stone free at the end. But, we still have to remember that, as with any surgery, every case is different. So, you have to always be able to adapt and do what’s right for each individual patient.
Host: Thank you for joining us today, Dr. Marchalik.
Dr. Marchalik: Thanks so much. Happy to be here.
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